Can America be Saved?
On January 22, 2008 in In the News
Secure the future of your Children, and Grandchildren - Vote Ron Paul.
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On January 22, 2008 in In the News
Secure the future of your Children, and Grandchildren - Vote Ron Paul.
Very interesting. The beginning parts with the music sound scarry. Anyhow, I still will vote for Huckabee, though I like Paul a lot. I just don’t know who is better. Nonetheless, if Ron Paul wins the primary, I will campaign for him.
At first I thought Ron Paul came off as a little too “crazy” for me; but the more I listen to him I see where he is coming from. I understand his thought process and I think he should be heard.
However, I have one major disagreement with him and that is why I too am supporting Mike Huckabee. Dr. Paul seems to want America to loose its super-power status. America has become very influential worldwide because of the courage, bravery and generosity of the American people. When Hitler was trying to dominate the world, who came to the rescue? When people were being starved and slaughtered by their governments, who came to the rescue? When the tsunami struck Indonesia, who came to the forefront by supplying the most aid? America, America, America.
Grant it, this is not a perfect country. I do share the concerns which Dr. Paul has raised about our economy; but all will not be solved by just, “Bringing the troops home” as he likes to put it and go back to being “fortress America”.
Dr. Paul will not get elected if he runs on what he interprets the constitution to be. If he feels that our foreign policy violates the constitution, then as a sitting congressman he should follow the constitution by taking all these claims to the Supreme Court. Then the President and Congress will have to abide by the high court’s ruling.
Hey Jonathon, it’s Josh, the atheist from California, I’m glad you found something we AGREE on.
I even made my own t-shirts for Dr. Paul
http://gojosh.com (let me send you one)
By the way, you may be interested in this I made, or even understand what I said
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o88d_gwC_xE
Check out these two videos, I’m in one of them
http://www.videojug.com/search?keywords=ron+paul
Hi Jonathan,
Unfortunately, it is too late for America. It’s downhill all the way, not only for America, but the whole world, including South Africa from where I am. William Branham said that America had her last chance in 1956.
In South Africa we have an apparent electricity shortage which means the country is in darkness a lot of the time. That darkness I see as a sign. We also have some sort of a nuclear renaissance. To me, it looks like a nuclear disaster is on its way. The reason for the bad outlook is because homosexual marriages and abortion have been legalised.
Let’s look forward to King Jesus’ civilisation.
By the way, I expect Hillary Clinton to win.
Regards,
Geoffrey
The reason for the bad outlook is because homosexual marriages and abortion have been legalized.
Geoffrey, while I agree that abortion and the acts of homosexuality are wicked, we shouldn’t jump to condemn a nation or world simply because of these two things.
The Bible teaches that disobedience to parents, lying, stealing, lusting, cheating, and pride are all just as wicked. If a World is to be punished, it’s going to be punished for Sin, and not for a specific sin.
Living in Florida I was told that Ivan, Katrina, and Dennis all came through and destroyed my home town because gays visit the beach in the Summer. I thought it was silly to say such a thing, since liars, cheaters, and all sorts of other sinners visit it too…why ignore their sin and only emphasize that of homosexuals?
Doesn’t make much sense…we’re all evil, and we all deserve death. The wages of SIN is death, but the Gift of God is Eternal Life - and I praise the Lord for that eternal life.
In Christ,
Jonathan Sampson
Did you hear the Christ statue was struck by lightning? Pretty cool huh?!
And I agree, we’ll all sinners and we all deserve death, so we might as well committ some more sins and get our money’s worth (especially if you’re already saved)
Josh
Tons of things get struck by lightening all day long. A large statue on a high hill getting hit isn’t exactly astonishing.
Your idea that we might as well sin more, since we’ve already sinned to begin with, isn’t exactly sensible either. I mean, I’ve jay-walked before (illegal), but that doesn’t mean I should go out and continue to break the law since I’ve done it once.
If you know that breaking the law results in punishment, what kind of idiot would want to multiply that punishment by carelessly breaking law after law simply because he’s already guilty of one?
Regarding the “why not if you’re already saved to begin with” mentality, the Apostle Paul addressed this 2,000 years ago. You claim to have read the Bible, so I’m confused as to why you would front a position like this:
Jonathan
Jonathan, enough with your analogies.
Why don’t I jay walk over and over again? Because the punishment is often proportional to the crime, if I jay walked twice, I can be charged twice, that’s not the same as going to hell for eternity whether you’ve sinned twice or two million times.
I do love one another and do not like opportunity for the flesh, but WHAT IF one person gets saved and does go back to sinning, it wouldn’t matter, would it?
Josh,
What’s wrong with analogies? My point in the analogy was to show that we generally don’t go out and willingly break the law simply because we may have done it in the past, because eventually we will be caught and punished and that isn’t something more people want to risk.
The Bible says the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus, our Lord. There is absolutely nothing difficult about that. You cannot complain about a righteous punishment when a solution is easier to attain than anybody could ever hope for.
This nonsense about “God is mean, he lets people go to hell” is just that, nonsense. NOBODY needs to go to hell, especially not when all they have to do is accept Christ as their payment.
God generously lifted the law off of our shoulders, placed it upon Christ, and allowed Christ to die a brutal death in accordance with the sin/payment system, to be our propitiation.
Regarding if somebody is saved, and “goes back to sinning”, then that person is still saved, according to Scripture. Let me suggest to you a person, The Apostle Paul, who wrote:
The difference between a saved person, and an unsaved person in this case is the saved person is miserable when he sees his sin. An unsaved person isn’t. They justify it with, “This is who I am. It makes me feel good. I’m not hurting anybody else. Everybody else does it.”
I may be unsaved, but I am not arrogant enough to justify my behavior, but I am willing accept judgment and punishment.
So I’m not miserable when I see my sin? You’re willing to believe people can be moral without religion or belief in God, yet you say they are not miserable when they see sin, as if they don’t care?
I do not literally believe we should sin more, but I believe it’s more consistent when you believe you are saved and free from hell. It is because I believe I need to take responsibility for myself and pay for my own sins that I believe I should watch out for my behavior, why else should I?
So I’m not miserable when I see my sin? You’re willing to believe people can be moral without religion or belief in God, yet you say they are not miserable when they see sin, as if they don’t care?
To a non-Christian “Sin” doesn’t exist. To admit you have “sin” is to admit that you’re under some Theistic authority. Non-Christians don’t want to admit that, therefore they are not “miserable” when they see their sin.
Sure, you might say, “Dang, wish I didn’t drink that last beer”, but that is far from misery. Show me a non-Christian who is miserable (for spiritual reasons) when he or she finds themselves lusting, or hating another person.
Why on Earth would anybody who feels we’re here for no purpose, there’s no higher-power, and I please myself, be miserable when they find themselves doing what others could call “sinful”?
Simply doesn’t make since.
“I do not literally believe we should sin more, but I believe it’s more consistent when you believe you are saved and free from hell.”
Go back and read Paul’s words. “For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.”
Paul expressed Sin as a battle between his flesh, and his mind. So no, it’s not “consistent” to believe Christians should start sinner more once they’re saved, for the same reason Paul didn’t find it acceptable.
A genuine Christian becomes a “new creature”, as the Bible puts it. One which wants to please its Creator more than itself.
“I believe I need to take responsibility for myself and pay for my own sins that I believe I should watch out for my behavior, why else should I?”
Then I expect you to turn yourself into the nearest police office for speeding, and jay-walking. I’m sure you’ve done both at least once, right? These demonstrate that you know you’ve broken the law, yet you don’t run out and convict yourself, because you don’t want the judgment.
The big difference between transgressing against man, and the Lord, is that you can sometimes pay your debt to man. But a righteous God cannot allow sin into his presence, and no amount of waiting in a cell will erase a man’s sin.
Once you kill, you’re a murderer, even if you’ve served your time. Once you cheat on your wife, you’re an adulterer, even if you wait 20 years. Once you lie to anybody, you become a liar.
These cannot be erased by time, which is why YOU need a substitution, because you cannot pay for these sins. It’s impossible. Christ, on the other hand, never lusted, lied, or cheated…he’s the perfect sacrifice. The only way you can pay for your sins is by offering Christ as your alternative.
We might not call it sin, but we recognize the same things as bad and wrong. Ok, if you want to take pride in your misery from spirituality, fine. Or if you think lack of misery somehow means lack of care or responsibility, fine. If not, whether a person is spiritually theistically miserable or just plain upset at what he did for humanist, secular and logical reasons, they’re both moral and responsible, aren’t they?
Laws were made to protect people, if you can break the law without hurting the people the laws were meant to protect, you didn’t violate the purpose of the law. If I did, I would turn myself in, as I would want those who have hurt others to do the same. Dr. Dino was accused of tax evasion, tax laws are evil, but he violated them no less for good reasons, am I right?
Sure, if I were caught I would plead guilty. As would I if I were to face God’s judgment. But if God hasn’t judged me, or the law enforcement hasn’t caught me, shouldn’t I question the purpose, merit and validity of the law and God’s law? Just because I am willing to take what comes does not mean I would go ask for it (just like I know I’ll die doesn’t mean I’ll kill myself).
This may be going off on a tangent, but my point is, I take responsibility for myself and those who are out to enforce either laws or God’s Laws should take their responsibility as well.
And I am willing to spend eternity in hell if that’s what God wants, because that’s what a logical God does to people like me. I consider any alternative foolish, cowardly and arrogant (and that’s just my opinion).
I never said crimes can be erased by time. But please make sure all criminals in this country know they’ll never serve enough, see if that’ll encourage them to act nicer (oh wait, you don’t care how they act, you care they’re saved).
“We might not call it sin, but we recognize the same things as bad and wrong.”
Duh…which is what I’ve been saying all along. You’re in college, right? How many of your fellow atheists get upset at themselves for lusting over women on campus? Seriously? Take a guess. And if you can think of any, tell me why they would.
“”Dr. Dino was accused of tax evasion, tax laws are evil, but he violated them no less for good reasons, am I right?
Actually, no, you’re wrong. Dr. Hovind was guilty of placing the wrong authorities in power over ministry finances. Those authorities were guilty of leading him down a darker path. He was guilty for following them all the way. Tax laws are not evil, they are good.
“And I am willing to spend eternity in hell if that’s what God wants, because that’s what a logical God does to people like me.”
Again, for somebody who claims to have read the Bible, you sure to act very uninformed on what God wants.
II Peter 3:9 says God is “…not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” And of course the famous John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
If God wanted you to suffer in hell for your sins, he would have never sent Christ, and made any easy way out for you.
“oh wait, you don’t care how they [criminals] act, you care they’re saved”
If you want respect, don’t say stupid things like this. Of course I care how criminals act, and yes, I also desire them all to be saved and serving the Lord instead of sin.
Half of the 10 commandments were for man’s interaction with man. Did you forget that? Don’t lie, kill, covet, or steal. Man’s behavior on Earth is incredibly important.
Man’s relationship with God is even more important. If a person has a strong relationship with God, they will by default “love they Lord with all their heart, and love their neighbor as themselves”, causing them to “live peaceably with all men” - Matthew 22:37, Romans 12:18
Tax laws are good? So communist tax laws are good too? Tax laws that’ve existed after the 1913 amendment are good?
God wants to be just, that’s why God wants those who’s sinned to suffer (I thought), if He doesn’t want them to suffer, he can forgive us even without Christ. Why make it so easy yet so hard?
Ok, so that’s the difference between you and I, you care about people being saved, I keep that between God and him, I just care how people act because this life here and now is all I know I have (as it is all I know others have).
“Tax laws are good?”
Yeah…why wouldn’t they be? If we didn’t have taxes, how would farmers make their profit, or the government pay for our defense, or the cities pay for the roads, and the police officers to watch over them?
“So communist tax laws are good too?”
Can you be a little more specific?
“God wants to be just, that’s why God wants those who’s sinned to suffer (I thought)”
You thought wrong. As I pointed out in previous posts, God is not willing that any should perish or suffer for their sins. He loved the world so much that he sent his only son to be the payment for our sins.
What God does, is punish the Sin. It’s kinda like, “Whoever is holding the murder-weapon when the police walk in is going to prison.” In this case, God is going to punish the weapon-wielder, and Christ said, “Give it to me…I’ll take the blame.”
“if He doesn’t want them to suffer, he can forgive us even without Christ. Why make it so easy yet so hard?”
How can God be rational and logically coherent and forgive man of his sin without exerting punishment to the sin. That isn’t Righteous, and it certainly isn’t Just. Imagine if judges today just turned a blind-eye to all crimes committed…would you consider them “good” judges? Of course not.
What is so hard about salvation? You admit that you’re sinner, accept Christ as your substitution, and try to serve God with your life from then on out.
“Ok, so that’s the difference between you and I, you care about people being saved…I just care how people act…”
No, I already told you that I care that people act proper with other people, and that people find Christ and become forgiven from their sins.
You must not read what I write, because I told you already in another comment (on another post) that man’s behavior with other men is of utmost importance. Half of the 10 commandments was specifically for man to man relationships.
Don’t lie, don’t steal, don’t covet, don’t commit adultery, etc. The Bible is VERY CLEAR that man’s behavior is important.
Yeah…why wouldn’t they be? If we didn’t have taxes, how would farmers make their profit, or the government pay for our defense, or the cities pay for the roads, and the police officers to watch over them?
Perhaps you’ve not seen the film America : From Freedom to Fascism, the film that brought the most Ron Paul supporters out from the internet.
Farmers make profit on their work, and they need to compete.
Defense is paid by corporate, not income taxes (but we can still do with them, we can use tariffs & imports)
Roads and police force are paid by state and local sales taxes. (and are meant to be proportional to those using the services)
None of the above are anywhere near the need for Federal Income Tax, which pays for nothing. You know our Federal Reserve notes are worth nothing, yet you need me to tell you Federal Income Taxes are paying for nothing in return?
I consider a judge who forgives people simply by believing somebody died for their sins and crimes no different than forgiving people simply by believing they are not guilty. A just judge judges behavior and punishes with behavior, not let crimes and sins off by belief. But that’s my opinion
And, I didn’t misunderstand you, you just care for one more thing than I do, being saved (as you would for others), that’s fine.
You don’t need to admit you’re a sinner, the definition of a sinner is not open or subjective, it’s defined. Like you said earlier, one does not, cannot, or will not go back to sinning simply after he’s been saved, so it’s not easy either. It’s NOT as simple as just believing and accepting. (Yet you want to put it that way).
I do not accept any substitute for my sins or crimes, that’s what I call responsibility. It is the lack of my belief I can be forgiven and relieved that I act more carefully, and watch out for myself. Even if however I act is never good enough, that’s the best I can and will do because that’s the best rational decision I can make based on what I am told (from God and lack thereof, not from you).
Josh: “Tax laws are good?”
John: “Yeah…why wouldn’t they be?”
Josh: “…Federal Income Tax, which pays for nothing…”
Pizza kills people…I know a man who was died from poisonous pizza. Do you see the fallacy there? You can’t argue that tax laws are bad, and then prove it by saying the Income Tax is bad.
Taxes (in general…which is what we were talking about) are good. If you want to talk about a Specific Tax, that is a different story.
“I consider a judge who forgives people simply by believing somebody died for their sins and crimes no different than forgiving people simply by believing they are not guilty.”
God doesn’t forgive people simply because they believe somebody died for their sins. God forgives people because their sins were paid for. Nobody would give me a house simply because I believe It’s paid for. They will however give me a house if IT IS paid for, and I accept that payment. Again, the system is logical and rational, and your points still don’t work.
“And, I didn’t misunderstand you, you just care for one more thing than I do…”
That’s not what you communicated earlier. Earlier, you said “…the difference between you and I, you care about people being saved…I just care how people act…”. This seems to indicate that you feel I believe (exclusively) that people should be saved, whereas your belief contrasts with wanting people to act a certain way. Now you’re saying, “You care for one more thing than I do” which means I care for both the salvation and the behavior of others - completely different. But I’m not here to kick a dead dog.
“I do not accept any substitute for my sins or crimes, that’s what I call responsibility.”
Actually, it’s more like pride. If you are unwilling to accept help from those who can help you, then you’re an idiot. I’m not calling you an idiot, unless you openly refuse help when you need it. Regarding our eternity, we are sinners, ergo, we need help. You can act all high-and-mighty and call yourself “Responsible”, but in the end, you’re not different than anybody else. A sinner in need of a savior.
“I’m with him 100% on evading evil tax laws that rip off hard working people and give us nothing in return. That’ll be the 2nd difference you and I have.”
Apparently you don’t even have the basic understanding of what Hovind’s views on taxes were if you make a statement like this. I can tell you with 100% certainty that you are not with him 100% regarding tax laws.
“So the government passing Roe V Wade to make abortion legal is ok with you and ok with God? Who judges the government for allowing the killing of babies, and the civilians in Iraq? Is this what you call just? (if yes, why do we need God? if no, where is God when we need Him?)”
Who judges the government? Am I wrong, or are we having a election right now? The people are suppose to vote, protest, and shape a nation. In the end, all people will answer to God for their actions, including government officials. The Bible teaches very clearly that Abortion is wrong, in demonstrating the sanctity of life begins upon conception, and the wickedness of shedding innocent blood. The Bible doesn’t say that everything the Government does is good and just, does it? No, but it says to submit to the powers that be. Do we submit no matter the circumstances? Apparently not, since the Biblical personalities revolted when the powers demanded that God not be praised, and Christ’s name not be spoken. Obviously, when the powers disregard God’s laws, it is better for us to follow Him, instead of them.
Wars are difficult to judge, so I’ll hold my tongue there.
“…where is God when we need Him”
Do you need him?
The tax laws that people are prosecuted for, and protest are typically ALL federal income taxes, those who know how other taxes work willingly pay them because they know what’s getting back and it’s represented.
OK. So I believe God who allows a person to use a belief as payment (or a belief of somebody paying for them) is unjust. Am I playing semantics or do you get my point? A person who can’t pay hell pays with somebody as a substitute, how responsible! How just! In practicality, this person who is saved, did nothing in material or physical different than a person who has no guilt and thinks he didn’t do wrong, THAT is why I dislike this type of salvation or forgiveness.
But getting back to the topic, federal income tax laws are no different than communist tax laws in principle. They are based on the idea that a man has no private property or entitlement to the fruits of his labor.
Given that you are the guy who showed me http://www.theft-by-deception.com/ (formerly 861.info) I’m sure you’re somewhat familiar with the immorality and unConstitutionality of federal income tax codes.
This is why I support Dr. Ron Paul, and man that will work to end evil laws that rob us. I don’t believe I have God given rights to life and property, but I will fight for it if I have to (as did our founding fathers).
“The tax laws that people are prosecuted for, and protest are typically ALL federal income taxes…”
Okay, you’re bouncing around statements - are taxes evil, like you said before, or is a specific tax evil like you’re saying now? How do you expect me to debate with you if you can’t even formulate a coherent argument?
“…In practicality, this person who is saved, did nothing in material or physical different than a person who has no guilt and thinks he didn’t do wrong…”
Take a second, get a coke, and rewrite that - I have no idea what you intended on communicating here.
Submit to the powers that be? Fine.
That’s no different than might makes right , majority rule.
Sure, Josh. Whatever.
Tax laws that prosecute people are evil, those are specifically federal income taxes, all other taxes mentioned above are not evil, not robbing people of fruits and are properly proportioned for good purposes.
…tax laws don’t prosecute people…the LAW does. Are you trying to say the law is evil instead?
Now that you’re starting to admit your worldview and behavior is not much different than humanists, atheists and those who judge by behavior, act on their responsbility. I think I am happy to say we agree more than we disagree, thus the need to debate has become less than before.
Starting to admit? What the heck are you talking about? I’ve ALWAYS held that our behavior is important, including a demonstration that it is commanded of Christians to hold this position. Are you trying to fabricate a victory here?
No fabrication, no victory, my misunderstanding of you. I apologize as I always thought we disagreed more, or you seem to always stress how different we are when the whole time I’ve known you I tried telling you how similar we are.
“…you seem to always stress how different we are…”
Again, not sure where you get this from. When have I “stress[ed] how different we are”?
You can go read everything we’ve said, whether its email exchanges, IM chats, or your blog comments. Time over time I have tried to emphasize we agree more than we disagree, and you can see where you point out disagreements and differences, but that’s ok. Looks like we’ve realized the more important and appreciatable similarities. And no, it wasn’t a waste of time, it’s worth every second for me to know a person and know my mistakes. (but if you think so long as I’m not saved or converted it’s a waste of your time, I am sorry).
I have to go read everything we said in order for you to demonstrate that I said certain things? Wow, so that’s what, 5 years worth of IM’s, Emails, and Blog-posts?
You can’t be serious.
Typically, if you affirm something, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate it.
I don’t recall ever stressing our differences. Sure, we have differences, but I’ve been of the mind-set from the beginning that Theists are moral, and Atheists are moral. Theists are immoral, and likewise so are Atheists.
If you’re going to end this conversation with the claim that you’ve changed my outlook from stressing differences (which is false) to embracing similarities (which I have always done), then you have to demonstrate that.
No, you don’t need to, not worth your time, especially if it doesn’t matter to you. I was making my point, if you don’t believe me that’s fine.
Yes, and I usually try my best to demonstrate my point.
One recent example is me telling you that atheists don’t use the word sin, yet we consider the most of the same things wrong. You point out how day and light it can be for crime, immoral actions are to sin in the spiritual sense.
I have not changed your outlook, I’ve understood you more. There’s nothing to demonstrate or prove as the appreciatable similarities are more important to me than detailed differences (and for the last year of my life, anybody who supports Ron Paul are my best friends)
“One recent example is me telling you that atheists don’t use the word sin, yet we consider the most of the same things wrong. You point out how day and light it can be for crime, immoral actions are to sin in the spiritual sense.”
What are you talking about? Of course Atheists don’t typically use the word “Sin” to describe actions…why would I argue that? When did I argue that?
Again, I’m not entirely sure what you mean, but you’re welcomed to clarify your comments so I can take part in this conversation of one.
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